People in general, and fans especially, are not confrontational. When they are displeased with something there are back room grumbling and silent walk-aways. You rarely see people stand up and freely speak their mind in a productive forum. For every 7th Fleet that stands up and is a squeaky wheel, there are a half-dozen Camarillas or Mandalorian Mercs who just simply walk away.
When I and others argue about the loss of fans at CONduit, we get countered by "but we had more people than last year." I counter that, it's not just about quantities. How many of those numbers are people that we'll never see again? As anyone in the hotel industry will tell you, one loyal guest is worth more than two transient ones. The convention has to not only draw them in, the convention has to keep them.
When I brought the Camarilla back to CONduit, it was noticed and commented on. As it stands, there is talk of walking away again. Other than selling buttons and knit Cthulhus at the hall table as a fund raiser, there is very little that is of interest to the club's members. People like them who are willing to come year after year are the people that the convention needs to be reaching out to.
I freely admit to being a shit stirrer. In this case, somebody has to do it. Our last one, Rex, has given up. No, I don't expect to get everything that I want. I am politic enough to understand the concept of compromise. As a general sf con, CONduit can't provide everything to any group of people without alienating the rest. LTUE is our academic pro oriented convention. Let's return CONduit to it's core fun, fan oriented roots.
Thank you everyone for participating in this blog's discussion of our future. I truly hope that something positive comes of all of this.
Well I guess I am one loyal customer..I found all I expected and wanted from ConDuit. I went to many panels, mostly about writing, I ran the Hall Costume Contest which went better than fair but less than great so I will say went 'good' (excuse the grammer). I enjoyed the Tri-Destiy Concert, Ice Cream Social, Writing and art stuff, did not do any gaming and talked to friends I see once a year. So I will go back..I think of ConDuit as a chance to rub shoulders with peers and learn some stuff and of course in my case be silly and get 100% away from what I do in real life. I do miss the room parties and some events but over all I enjoy the con. MY take is that those who walk away are 'hurting fans' and doing themselves a disservice..I know all the groups who have walked away well except the Camarilla because my interst in not in that area and I know next to nothing about Cthulhus. If everybody who has walked away would get their tails out from between their legs and walk back in bold and beautiful there could be some of the changes that are wanted..In my opinion ConDuit is most directly a 'creative con' and that likely will not change but that leaves a whole heck of a lot of playing room around that central dot. I saw that this year better than others..but there is still room.. Fighting the tracks and core is not the means.. don't try to change but try to build around the so called core. It worked in the past.it can work again and I don't care how many strong personalities there are and how many percieved or supposed 'unbendables' there are the key is action and creating.. those who have or might walk away can come back, can make a difference and in reality must make a difference..I find what I want in ConDuit.. I want to help others find what they want. I am the supposed Club Liaison and because I am (I believe) a believer in the current and future ConDuits I can only say AGAIN to those who have walked away to come back...to paraphrase something I heard from the pulpit of my church.. bring the truth you have and let us all build upon it..(NOW no cracks or stuff about what is truth..the comment will break down with too much nitpicking grin) ALL FANS loose if some walk away.. there are few local alternatives and those which have tried have struggled but some are now thriving but they fill niches..ConDuit can become the General Con it has been while still filling its roll as a Creative Oriented Convention. Call me Polly Anna and an overly sentimental optimist but I believe that if Rex, The 7th Fleet, The Camarilla, etc. put as much effort into being at ConCom IN FORCE, Volunteering and getting re-involved on a mass level as they do finding excuses/reasons/whatever not to go, rejoin, etc. then I believe we could put together a convention that would outshine EVERY con and group's greatest expectections.. People have the power..not individuals...If you want something EVERYONE must be there..That is why I am glad you keep coming.. I do not think it will even be a glacial process if people do as I believe..FOR THE SAKE OF ALL FANDOM..GET INVOLVED AND CREATE!!! LET THE '@#$%%^## PAST VANISH AND BE THOUGHT OF NO MORE..SO WE CAN ALL BUILD A GLORIUS FUTURE! FANS UNITE, FANS BUILD AND FANS WORK TOGETHER!!
ReplyDeleteIf CONduit were professionally run, then the answer would be "whatever fen will come in the most numbers and make us the most money."
ReplyDeleteBut CONduit is a fan-run con. To the extent that this point has been discussed at all, it's "whatever fen we're comfortable being around, who enjoy fannish activities as much as we do, with enough diversity that we can pay the bills and do it again next year."
So we're essentially passing the hat, with the implicit promise that if you chip in, you'll get something you enjoy. When that promise is broken, people will feel disappointed, even angry.
For example, for several years we had a kick-ass gaming section. Gaming fen passed the word, and at one point over half of our attendance was gaming. Then came a year when for various reasons gaming frankly sucked. Many of my friends who had come for the gaming were disappointed, and I wasn't too happy myself. This kind of thing has happened in other areas, as well.
Panel programming is the one area that receives fairly consistent attention. In part that's because programming is an entire committee meeting every month, and there's a lot of pressure on the programming chair to get their information to the publishing departments on time.
But even here we can have lack of consistency. For example, for two years we received amazing support from End of the World, an anime club, and we had great anime programming. Then they started their own con, and had a lot less time for CONduit. I wouldn't be at all surprised if anime fen noticed and were upset over the loss in quality.
There is very little that the con chair or concom can do that amounts to hiring and firing. If you show up, chances are you'll get whatever job it is you want to do. Most of the time volunteers like that do a good job, but sometimes life happens, and then we don't discover until too late that some area that we thought was being covered will be a gaping hole, instead.
I agree that quality is important, but to the extent that quality creates an implicit promise, I think consistency is at least as important. I don't know what to do about that, though. CONduit is a lot like Blanche from "A Streetcar Named Desire" in that we depend on the kindness of strangers - except, of course, this is a smallish fan community, so it's more that we depend on the kindness of friends and acquaintences. Even if some of us are a little strange.
I haven't been speaking exclusively to or at the convention leadership. I am aiming my commentary at the fen as well. I was going to be one of those who quietly walk away leading up to this year's con. The improvements this year are what has made me into a vocal advocate for change. Like Brad, I will gamely tilt at windmills for my lady's love.
ReplyDelete"People in general, and fans especially, are not confrontational. When they are displeased with something there are back room grumbling and silent walk-aways."
ReplyDeleteThis is, incidentally, the one of the fallacies of the market place. It is said that people vote with their dollars, or their feet. But without constructive feed back the people losing the votes have to guess at what's going on. Often those guesses will be wrong. So feedback is important.
We occasionally had surveys out. Did we have one this time? I didn't notice. The trouble with surveys like that is, of course, that they are self-selecting: only folks who feel strongly that they need to respond will take the time. Ditto this blog.
It would be lovely if we could do some kind of randomized survey of attendees... We wouldn't have to quiz them all, but about 100 questionnaires (if well designed) might give us information that we need to keep whatever promises we might have made this year. ^_^
@Martin "Those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it." You are singing he same old song, Martin and I'm afraid that it is you and CONduit that are losing. You have been told that there is a waterfall ahead but you refuse to change course. Do not expect us to jump in after you and fight you for course change.
ReplyDelete@Helge - You don't have to guess at what we have been screaming about for years. Why should we take CONduit jobs when we already have our own that are much more fulfilling? You call CONduit a group of friends. We have found it not so friendly and have repeatedly pointed this out to you.
@everyone else- This is not so difficult to understand. If I want to go see the movie Thor, I do not buy a ticket to Bridesmaids and expect it to change. You'll not get support from those who have been alienated until they see they aren't getting the same thing they did last time.
You will note that it is not the fanclubs that need CONduit. We're doing just fine. If you want our help and participation, then pay it more than lip service. Do something.
With respect to those seeking positive change, we are always open to working with you and hope that your efforts bear fruit. Until we see more than posts about it, don't expect a groundswell of giddiness.
@Erin- Rex hasn't given up... hope springs eternal. I have about enough time for CONduit to make these posts. Until it turns back to its inclusive roots, there's no sense in spending any more. I hope that those who read these posts take action. We are watching. Until then, we will keep on Trekkin'.
-Rex Rouviere
"We have found it not so friendly and have repeatedly pointed this out to you."
ReplyDeleteRex, I meet the same folks you do. I have no idea what you're talking about. I mean, you do point this out a lot, but, based on my experience with all of the people involved in CONduit, over the past 13 years that I've been working with the con, folks are plenty friendly and inclusive.
I have no doubt there might be specific personality conflicts or hurt feelings, but to tar the entire convention with that petty brush should be beneath you.
A lot of Cons have a mini-questionaire on the registration form, "Which of the following interest you?" and a bunch of ticky-boxes.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to get real professional about it, Randomly select, say, 20 or 40 attendees and and offer them $10 off next years membership to fill out an in-depth survey of their experience.
@redrob That's a decent idea We also need to reach out to the fans who don't come to CONduit and find out what would draw them in. A Fan Club Liaison could go about attending club events and collect this data from the individual club members rather than just from a vocal person or two.
ReplyDeleteI'm a writer and I'm going to have to agree that it does feel like LTUE II. I like that. But I agree, there just wasn't so much else. There have been some great ideas like having Darth Vader, etc meet on a panel.
ReplyDeleteBecause I have LOTS of other things to do, including my own career, I can't come to con com meetings. It comes down to gas and commute time. I can, however, participate in online planning. I wish there was more of this. A forum, where minutes are posted of the live meetings (not just on a static site) and discussion continued with people unable to attend. Panel idea put up NOW, and voted on by potential attendies: I would go, I wouldn't go.
A change of venue, please. I understand this is the place, but the convention is split into two floors which makes wandering into something cool a bit harder. Plus, now I read Heather M say that the venue is why we can't have a masquarade ball? And we would have stayed if I'd know there were bands playing. This wasn't advertised well enough.
So, I guess most of my suggestion amounts to better web presence including a blog and a forum, which means better advertising.
Could we get the mountain con people to help get some of those autograph guaranteed guests here?
So those are my ideas. Hope they help.
I was at the convention all weekend, since I ran the media room. I went to 4 panels (if you count the masquerade contest as a panel). Largely because I'm not a (professional/aspiring/insert other demographic here) writer, and that's what most of the panels were about.
ReplyDeleteThe ones I went to were one on Faster-than-light communication, one on Firefly, one on The Big Bang Theory. As a fan, there wasn't much there to draw my attention.
There's a lot of really interesting and great (and some not-so great) SF on the airwaves and internet right now. Where were the panels on things like Chuck, Fringe, V, Dr Who (I think there was one Dr Who panel?), Merlin, Warehouse-13, Eureka, Stargate Universe (I could see a really interesting panel discussing franchise-burnout comparing Stargate with Star Trek), Sanctuary, Thor/Comic book movies in general, Pirates of the Caribbean, and some of the other really current things going on?
Or on the web-series phenomenon? I think there was one panel (that I didn't make it to, so I don't know how it was) on Sunday-- which didn't seem to have near the attendance of the other two days-- on how to do a web-series. If the con is trying to attract (insert demographic) writers and fans, that might be a good bridge-gap to explore. There's a plethora of web-series available to view right now, including Ark, Riese, JourneyQuest, among others.
Aside from seeing a few local authors who had things currently coming out this year (like Larry Correia, for example), and the Big Bang Panel, I didn't really feel like there was any nod on what's current and happening in the SF world.
I hang out in geek circles-- not the fan clubs as such, but most of my friends have some interest in something SF. And I had a devil of a time finding volunteers to help me in the media room. Even getting in at the volunteer rate for the weekend didn't hold appeal because there was nothing going on they were interested in seeing. Those I did get to volunteer I got by trading on friendship and personal favors.
For those of us who aren't writers, there didn't seem to be much to do.
Which isn't to say that everything is bad by any means. I had some personal success even in the media room with a few events (most notably Browncoats: Redemption and the Sing-A-Long to Dr. Horrible), even though it was on the 3rd floor which seems to be a no-man's land. I know I can certainly improve what I did (if I do the media room again).
For instance, when I was returning movies to Joe Monson Sunday, I mentioned to him that the Dr. Horrible event went really well, and Pam piped up with "You had a Dr. Horrible sing-a-long? I would have gone had I known!" If the concom people don't know about something I put together, I'm obviously doing something wrong. =)
In short, I think two things that could do with some improving is hitting panels/events tied to what's current/new/hot in SF and getting the word out more.
Julie Henderson
I'm also a writer. This was my first Conduit - and I thought it was great (also loved my first LTUE this year), and brought my writer daughter on Saturday. But, my husband and son, gamers both, looked over the schedule and events, and stayed home, because there simply wasn't enough there to interest them.
ReplyDeleteI certainly wouldn't want you to scale back the writing in order to expand gaming - but I think the gaming needs to be expanded and diversified - multiple choices going on at the same time, whenever big events like the Killer Breakfast aren't going on. And planned far enough in advance so that you can post on the web and in the paper schedules.
It scares me to see someone identify CONduit as LTUE II. Because that is not what CONduit ever was nor should ever be. And I think if CONduit continues in that vein, it will die. The wave is cresting. Will CONduit change enough to ride the wave or will it be crushed against the coral at the bottom of the lagoon?
ReplyDeleteAfter reading the comments and having time to reflect, I have a few thoughts I would like to share:
ReplyDelete1) I have been going to and been involved in Cons for a little over 30 years....ConDuit is a small Con, and because of space, manpower commitments & FUNDS; small Cons simply can not be everything to everyone. Cons like Dragoncon are so big that they can be more inclusive and provide much more diversified tracks. ConDuit programming and guest tends to be geared toward the literary side of fantasy & Sci Fi fandom. I agree with most here, that this leaves out a large portion of fandom and needs to be address if ConDuit wants to grow to fully. But to say that Concom shuts out the fan clubs is just WRONG.........Being someone who is new to the area and ConCom, I saw and experienced first hand the unwillingness of a few individuals in the fan club circuit to even discuss their issues with ConDuit, less more come together and solve them.
What really steams me is to see these people stand on the sidelines with their arms folded, expecting someone to come up and beg them to BLESS ConDuit with their participation. The fantasy/sci-fi community is small, events like Cons promote the genre as a whole, everyone benefits when fandom all work together...the Con wins, the Fans win and the FAN CLUB wins......And as a very PERSONAL opinion, its sad that there are those so “high” on their own fiefdom to see the bigger picture.
2) I believe ConDuit does need to expand its list of Guest of honors to include stars other then authors and/or artists. Since I was on Concom this year I had a chance to vote on the GoH from a long list of 25 to 30. Since I am not a literary Sci-fi fan I could only identify maybe two or three, not including Tracy Hickman. I thought to myself I would not pay $45 to see or speak with any of these GoHs. During the Con I had a chance to speak with others whom felt the same. But since I attended the ConCom meetings I understood why there was objection to trying to bring in more notable guests. There is a worry that the cost of bring in an autograph guaranteed guest would damage the Con's finances if the guest did not draw in the crowds and in turn ConDuit would go the way of many other Cons that collapsed under the debt of getting stars to attend. I think future ConComs need to find a way to solve this problem.
3) Gaming this year was “light” for several reasons...some by design, some by chance. Last year, there was a much larger & diverse selection of games. Unfortunately, a lot of these games sat without players and a few discouraged gamemasters. This prevented some from coming back this year. My plan for ConDuit 21 was to have a few scheduled games, but to have a better Con gaming experience for the players whom attended. This year we passed out over $500 worth of prizes donated by our gaming sponsors and almost all our games were full. The hope is that ConDuit 21 gaming was a pleasant enough experience that it will draw back more gamers, game master and importantly game sponsors.
Joseph Ford
@Deena as a gamer myself and one who was involved in running some games this year I would have loved more fresh blood in the gaming rooms. While we do get large rooms to run gaming which is great, it feels like gaming is an afterthought since the gaming rooms are back in the corner. One gaming room had open gaming and some scheduled gaming with reps from Steve Jackson games as well as others willing to run just about any game you could ask for, and the other room ran 4E D&D all three days of the Con until well after midnight both Friday and Saturday. There were sign ups for the D&D games on the CONduit website just so we could gauge how many tables we were running, but we were also able to accommodate walk in players.
ReplyDeleteAs far as venue goes; having attended CONduit, Anime Banzai, and Mountain Con I have to say that as both an attendee and volunteer I greatly prefer the Davis Conference Center. I know the big complaint people have had is that it is in Layton and people don't want to drive 30 more minutes north but to that I just say suck it up.
Devil's Advocate here: Suppose the completely unexpected happened -- virtually the whole of the Planning Committee contracted a horrible illness and died, leaving only the 3 people on the Board of Trustees.
ReplyDeleteYou get to be an integral part of determining the new direction of CONduit. You would still face and have to deal with the financial realities of the organization. Given that, Who will step up to the plate to fill all the positions needed to do a convention next year?
Answers of "I don't think that's going to happen" aren't allowed because this is DreamTime. You know you won't get everything you want, but who WILL be on board? After all, 3 trustees alone could not do it.
If you are already on the Planning Committee, you can't answer. This is DreamTime and you are dead.
Have at it, guys.
As the person who maintains the membership database, I started tracking the last con year attended by individual members. At one of the first planning meetings for CONduit 21, a member of the committee mentioned that all we need to do is attract 150-200 new members and we would be on the road to recovery. There was general noise of agreement.
ReplyDeleteThen I spoke. We have gotten 150-200 new members every year for the several years I've been working with the convention. But each year, our growth is on the order of 50-60. So far this year, it does not look a lot better than that. But this means that we LOSE 100-150 of the previous year's attendees.
One could hear a pin drop.
Our problem is not getting new member. Our problem is retention to a second year. And we have to get to a position where we understand why and define what we can do to change it.
This discussion, Erin, is incredibly valuable and I am so very grateful, my friend, that you decided to stir the shit. And now I will wade back into my reading and get more on my shoes.
Debbie Lords
@ Anonymous...you said I am singing "the same old song" You are right!..It is the song of "Hope, Unity and leave the past behind." I will keep singing this song. I am enjoying the points and counter points in this blog and agree and disagree as I believe fit and since others speak in this foram better than me, I will only add as I see fit and I will continue to work toward the betterment and maintenance of ConDuit as best I can. I also add my voice to those who are reading this, commenting and thanking Erin for setting this up.
ReplyDeleteAs for me the only area I claim any experience or expertise in is in leaving the past behind no matter how sharp the knife in the back, the personal hurt and/or virolent (sp?) the difference of opinion. It is not easy but it can be done and my song says that the resulting music will bring harmony to fandom and cadence to the convention.
Same old song.anonymous??you may not have meant me to take your comment as I did but this is my perspective.
Thank you, Erin, for initiating this conversation. It has been wonderful to read all of the different points being made. Some people seem to be getting it, others are stubbornly not. I can't speak to why other groups have chosen to leave CONduit, but, as someone who attended regularly in the 90's, first by myself and then as part of the Star Trek community that is the Seventh Fleet, I can speak to why the fleet left. There had been rumblings of discontent for a couple of years, but the final straw was in '02. The fleet had worked their guts out to present several panels that showcased several of the group's diverse interests. The end of the panels and the end of the con resulted in our efforts being, in essence, spat upon and sneered at, to be quickly followed up by "So what are you planning for next year?" It was apparently expected that no matter how badly we were treated, we were just supposed to suck it up and come back again, again paying money to provide our own entertainment and bring in money to a convention that quite clearly didn't want us there. After the convention of '02, the fleet sat down and wrote up a 14-page letter to the ConCom, stating why we wouldn't be returning as a group. Fast-forward a few months, it's time for panel suggestions and such, and the leaders of the fleet began getting inquiries as to why we hadn't offered any suggestions. The con of '03 comes around, and there are surprised voices that the fleet wasn't in attendance, and why not? We reminded the ConCom about the letter we had sent after '02, expressing sadness that we hadn't heard a single response from our letter. Our answer? "Letter? What letter?", then, "Well, we seem to have misplaced the letter. Can you send another copy?" This showed us exactly what we meant to the con.
ReplyDeleteThere have been several attempts over the intervening years to become involved in the con again, because, back in the day, it used to be fun. What we mostly hear now from the 'old guard' is "WE aren't a media con." Guess what? Media is where the money is. I've seen it posted elsewhere, but I'll state it again. If Conduit wants to be strictly a literary con, that's fine. But stop making claims to being a general-interest sci-fi con. If Conduit really is supposed to be a general sci-fi con, then show, don't tell.
As a writer, and someone who's been attending CONduit for seven years, I would love to see a change of venue. The room for readings is impossible to find and inconvenient for a larger crowd. The main "hall" area is always crowded and awkward. I would also love to have Sam Weller's or Barnes & Noble have a table in the Dealer's Room where people can buy the panelists' books. B&N has come in the past, and sold plenty of books, I don't know why that stopped. Speaking of fandom, I would love to see panels about iconic books or writers: I am dying for a nice big group to talk about DUNE with! Or Tad Williams: Otherland vs. Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn!
ReplyDelete"The end of the panels and the end of the con resulted in our efforts being, in essence, spat upon and sneered at..."
ReplyDeleteI wasn't one of the people spitting or sneering. I find it hard to believe that anyone would; I don't know anyone whose attitude is negative towards Star Trek fen or the fans of any other media group, for that matter. I'm sorry to hear that's how you felt you were received.
"virtually the whole of the Planning Committee contracted a horrible illness and died"
ReplyDeleteWhat a dream! Thanks a lot, pal.
That is a good question, though. Complaints like, "you don't pay enough attention to -this-" are due to the focus those of us currently on concom have. Change the people, and you will change the focus.
Some of us might not like having to take the backseat. That's OK. They tell me change is good. ^_^
I had posted my comments yesterday, but they got lost in the ether. They were very stirring. Almost magical. They would have solved everything. Including world hunger. Too bad these aren’t those comments.
ReplyDeleteI didn’t go to CONduit this year. Thought about it. Changed my mind a couple times about it. Still didn’t go. Why didn’t I go? Ultimately, I had a desk delivered that weekend. I couldn’t go. However, there’s more to the story.
I was off and on about not going for the past couple months. The day before the convention, I looked at the web site and saw there wasn’t a complete programming schedule and what there was didn’t include anything I wanted to attend. So, why waste my time and money. I had planned on going to the Pathfinder games, but since they weren’t listed, I figured they weren’t happening. I refuse to go to the LFR games because of the people involved.
That afternoon, Erin sent me a programming list that included some panels I thought looked interesting, so I decided to go. Then the people I bought a desk from told me they wouldn’t be able to deliver until sometime Saturday.
Sad to say, this is my usual CONDuit decision process each year.
Last year, I was only there long enough to play a Pathfinder game and get a book signed by an author.
It’s been the same way for me for the past decade since I returned from Michigan. Pervious to moving to the Mitten State, it was starting to become my thought process. Especially after CONduit decided to get rid of gaming for a year and then nearly killed themselves (I was at that CONCom meeting at the downtown Comics Utah and argued against that decision).
I wait to see if there is anything offered that I really want to go to, then I might go.
Off and on I’ve ran events. One year, I was a Wizards of the Coast Delegate and ran game demonstrations for nearly every slot. Of course I had to pay for my own membership . . . another thing that sticks in my craw. Paying to work at a con . . . I don’t do that anymore. In cases where I run a couple events, I don’t mind paying, but not when I’m devoting an entire weekend.
Those folks who know me know I’m devoted to the gaming community in Utah. There might be those who still remember TIM OGRE and The Intermountain Matrix Newsletter. I’ve ran events at stores, not only as a WotC Delegate, but on my own time and at my own expense. I’ve run events at the Magna Library (and now that the new one is open, I may do so again). I understand how exhausting and thankless a job it can be, whether it’s involving gaming, costuming, filking, or whatever it is that floats your kettle.
ReplyDeleteI’ve been to events where the organizers work year-in and year-out to get their events as best as they can get them for the good of the community. They strive to get the schedules ready at least a month before the event out, get game tables, and seminars, and events. They work not for adulations of the crowds, not for the power and authority their position holds. They work for the good of the fan community.
Oh, that was in Michigan . . . .
Gamers have a certain quality that they get along (for the most part) with other gamers. Doesn’t matter the system or style, if you’re a gamer, you’re a kind of family. This breeds a kind of community among dice-chuckers, card floppers, and lead pushers (well . . . lead/pewter pushers). The only time I’ve ever seen it is in the military community. If you’re Air Force (or any branch, or having served at all), you’re family.
This breeds a kind of openness among gamers. They’ll talk about their favorite game systems, adventures, and tell you how their 20th level ranger slew the entire 1st edition Deities and Demigods (non-Cthulhu/Melnibonian version). They will come out in droves to support events and they have an inclusive mentality that brings gamers they just met into their games . . .
Oh, wait . . . that was Michigan, too.
Utah gamers seem to be very exclusive sort of gamer. They are as equally friendly and open as other gamers I’ve met in elsewhere, but their games tend to be closed to their friends in their basements or dining rooms. They seem to protect their game groups from any and all intruders. This is something I noted way back in 1991. I think it was an article in an issue of The Intermountain Matrix!
ReplyDeleteCombine this with an apparent need for personal power and recognition in accomplishments that seem to pervade in this community. Those who organize events, regardless of the fan base, seem to only do so for the recognition and the power it grants them. Once they are kings and queens of their own domain (gaming, filking, art, writing, etc.), they hold onto that territory; every inch, like a middle-eastern despot. It’s their way or the highway . . . their vision must be maintained.
This and the horrible “luck” Utah has had with fan-based conventions. Since at least the 1980’s Utah has seemed to be on a kind of blacklist for cons. I attended a Doctor Who convention back in the mid-80s where I talked to the organizer who mentioned that they were exceedingly lucky to be there because of some kind of blacklist.
I’m sure we’ve all heard the stories of mismanagement and out-right theft involving conventions here in Utah. Not always is it one person’s sticky fingers at fault. Sometimes it’s a hotel’s sticky fingers. Or just bad decisions with best intentions. Or just good, old-fashioned incompetence.
I understand the difficulties of getting people involved and to share the burden of running an event, regardless of the scope or size of that event. I also understand getting those people to actually work together instead of having them protect their own little fiefdoms. Not to mention the problem of getting the community to join in either as helpers or as attendees.
From the vantage point of an outside looking in, CONduit’s problems are many and long-lived. I had hoped with the changing of the old-guard a couple years ago that things would improve. I don’t really see that happening. Cronyism, territorialism, and inefficiencies are still there in strength, with no sign of leaving.
Getting the fan communities to involve themselves more would help. Attending the coms would help. However, time is at a premium for many these days. Delegating tasks would help some.
I think the greatest changes will have to occur in these areas:
ReplyDeleteCommunity Involvement – The communities NEED to get more involved with CONduit and CONduit needs to get more involved with the communities. Many local merchants do not have a presence at CONduit. Hastur’s quit going because it’s not fiscally viable for them. Many groups are not represented or are outright ostracized. The fellowshipping needs to go both ways, but if you want them to come to CONduit, then they need to be reached out to first.
Leadership – The leadership doesn’t necessarily need to be changed, but there needs to be changes in the leadership and way things are done. Not having a complete programming list on the web site the day before the con is ludicrous. The leadership and the con must be handled in a more professional manner, almost like a business . . . because it is.
CONduit needs to change. Not merely for change sake, but intelligent, viable, enriching changes.
Evolve or die applies to species, businesses, and conventions.
Michael S. Webster
TIM OGRE & Dice Tales
@ Helge - no, it wasn't you, but it WAS a member of ConCom, whose direct words and actions after our final panel had one of MY crew in tears. That was the culmination of an entire weekend, and, in fact, a couple previous Conduits, in which we had been told one thing when we proposed our panels initially, got them approved as they were written, then, at the con, were told that the panels couldn't be done that way. Or, concerning the Sci-Fi Fashion Parade specifically, we were told that anyone taking part in the fashion parade - assuming their costumes were not store-bought - would be welcome to participate in the Masquerade. This encouraged a lot of our people to put their hearts and souls into making their costumes. We were then told, just AFTER our panel concluded, that any costumes that had been displayed in the parade would, in fact, NOT be allowed in the Masquerade.
ReplyDeleteSome of these problems, I realize, can be attributed to the con's long-standing problems with communication, although, 8 times out of 10, we always spoke with the person in charge of whatever given area we were dealing with.
As far as the literary superiority complex, I'm sure no one gives off the attitude on purpose, but it's there, nonetheless. The observation of said attitude has come from diverse fen, not just the Trekkies. Con organizers as far away as Denver have wondered aloud what Conduit was doing in systematically alienating the fan clubs in the area. The woman who is the club liaison for Starfest, shortly after all of this happened, asked Carl what was going on with Conduit, then promptly stood up at her table and pointed at every single club table in the room, (there were a couple dozen there), and named off just exactly what each club did for the convention. The attitude there is completely different, and, as Starfest is a convention the 7th Fleet attends regularly, it isn't difficult to compare how clubs there are treated with how the clubs here have been treated. We have a basis for comparison, and it isn't just all in our minds.
Sorry - the person Carl spoke with was actually the Chair of Mile-High Con. =)
ReplyDelete@Devil's Advocate: Should the unthinkable happen, I would step up and serve the fan community in any way that they needed me. I have served on the ConCom in the past and depending on how things go, will do so in the future.
ReplyDeleteYa know, I'd really like to know what the ongoing problem "the clubs" have w/ the con IS! Saying that you've said it repeatedly--w/o, say, an archive link to that 14-page manifesto--doesn't help me or anybody else who doesn't know.
ReplyDeleteAnd I cannot believe I'm the only one in that position.
I concur with Erin on this subject I originally came to CONduit because of the Camarilla. The following year I was vending, because I had seen such amazing potential. For several years it was amazing the best thing that I could have done for my company, and my Family. Then I noticed that one by one fan groups where disappearing. My wife and I joined the Staff and even tried to advertise for the Convention, but found the old regime blocking great ideas in favor of their own pet projects. When asking about the fan clubs they would respond with only one group has left and we are better for it. The following years numbers though "Higher than the last" as I was told left a sour taste in my mouth when every dealer argued there could be no more than 100 people including those in that room. The following year was worse and I took my company away for 3 years. The first of which was because a family cruise. (Who passes on a cruise?) I was invited while I boarded ship to come back but that was the last I heard of it except with the exception of Steve Harmon inviting me 2 years later and advertising in my store.
ReplyDeleteThis year I returned to give CONduit and our friends a chance at a new company that of a on site seamstress/ embroiderer and my company again. I noticed a decent size group of people, and was optimistic. However upon talking to a few dealers who came prepared for old clients and friends of their business's. That their regulars of years where not there and sales where tight. Of my regulars I only saw 10. Ten people who have been amazing patrons but where are the members of The Camarilla, The USS Kelley, Mandalorians, Star Wars fans, and where was the Anime club where was my 111 other loyal patrons of years past?. I checked they where at home with their families and when I mentioned CONduit they gave me, "oh yeah guess that was this weekend". They didn't care why because they don't feel welcome.
Several vendors where missing too I noticed though when I brought this to the attention of the staff I was told but I couldn't fit anymore the room is full. My response is with authors who use to be in a separate room. There was no anime distributor or comic store or miniature figurines. I didn't see anyone selling any RPG books that where not dated 15 or more years old.
Now from a vendors perspective it was a good Con I paid for my tables and my product and made a little not enough to consider it a great show like in years past. Part of that is the economy I know. Trust me I know. But part of it is the Clubs where no where to be seen.
ReplyDeleteDealers for those who do not know are in a tight pinch when doing a show. We have to take product off our shelves and out of our stores that we have paid for out of our own pockets. In hopes of selling to those we expect to be there. One of the most devastating years at Conduit for me was when the Uss Kelly and the Uss Ursa split up their friendship of years and only one ship came to CONduit. I had bought several products Star Trek specific that year and sold 2 pieces out of 20. That was harsh it took 3 years to sell all of them, that is not a winning situation. It was also the year I saw the clubs leaving one by one and attendance became questionable for me as a company. Because one group had a tiff that is pretty lame. Now that has nothing to do with CONduits staff their is nothing they can do for that problem and fixing that bad blood. But those groups are not coming back unless they are invited. The other groups who have not made a showing are not coming back unless they are invited. The new groups are not coming unless they are invited. There is a HUGE HUGE need for a liaison a CONduit Liaison to these groups. There use to be a position for such a person what happened? My best guess is they moved onto Anime Banzai who has record numbers of people coming and tons of groups showing up. But I don't know what happened.
The old regulars where missing this year. Don't get me wrong I loved seeing several of my good friends that I only get to see at CONduit. I loved seeing all of them but the numbers of those missing was sad.
The entire venue was wonderful I even stepped into more panels cause there was some nice new amazing panels which is hard to do year after year. There was quite a few amazing events Including the Ice cream social. The mood of the con was wonderful fun and enjoyable.
The staff did a wonderful job I am not saying that they didn't but the old regulars need to be invited back. The fan clubs need to be embraced as important members of CONduit. Any con is only as successful as the fans it generates. CONduit could become something gigantic it could be big enough to fill more than one hotel here in SLC but that requires the embracing of its fans.
Who knows what the problem is with clubs and their view of the con, is not the problem or a concern. Just find a liaison who can invite them back. Who cares what offended them or what the past it is what it is the past. Invite them back let them know we want them back. Let them know they are important to CONduit.
I came back not because it was a secure investment, but I was invited several times by 1, (ONE) person. I didn't believe it was going to make me money and it didn't I walked away with 100 dollars after all was said and done. Will I return Maybe but I will bet dollars to donuts that I will be invited by that same said one person. If one person on the staff did what he has been doing for the vendors, but for the clubs they would be there. That is why the Ghostbusters of SLC where there. They where invited they where showed that CONduit wants them and their presence. That is why I was there. That is why my wife decided to debut her company there this year. One person did all that. One person assigned to be a Liaison can bring them all back I am telling you. Hell honestly a few special people that are goal oriented assigned to advertising and you could get the governor to make it an official Holiday and event. Wouldn't that be something. Honestly CONduit could be the next DragonCon. Just need to embrace the fans.
ReplyDeleteSorry if I am rambling or beating a dead horse but I want this CON to be huge. Sorry if I have no where near enough comas and apostrophes I am not a writer or an English major. I am a blacksmythe and sword and weapons maker/weapons historian/ expert. But I am a GEEK and I want us to unite as GEEKS! I want this to be the GEEK FEST UTAH DESERVES. Cause GOD KNOWS (I don't care which one you name or believe in) we need to have more FUN in this STATE. So lets make this the BIG ONE lets make this bigger than Sundance Film Festival. LETS PARTY IN GEEK-DOM!!!!! Cause we deserve it!
@Helge: "Rex, I meet the same folks you do. I have no idea what you're talking about. I mean, you do point this out a lot, but, based on my experience with all of the people involved in CONduit, over the past 13 years that I've been working with the con, folks are plenty friendly and inclusive."
ReplyDeleteLe Sigh...
Please read the link: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/friendly
Nowhere in that description do I find; systematically alienating people, insulting other's views, depreciating their concerns or ignoring their repeated entreaties for change.
Yes, I CAN 'tar' the entire convention. Tar takes repeated application for coverage apparently. I have gone to CONduit every year since the second. So, having almost double your experience, there is plenty of room for difference.
With some outstanding exceptions like Tamra and Brad Hawks, Ruth Hanson, Debbie Lords and a handful of others who go out of their way to be helpful, care to listen, and work for accord with different people, CONduit is definitely unfriendly. If an apple is 80-90% rotten I think it can safely be called a rotten apple.
I see several people here calling for change and only a handful wanting the status quo.
What you really need to do is answer Carl's question. Do you want to change? Do you want the clubs and other dissaffected groups to return to the con year after year?
If so, then listen, pay attention to our concerns and DO SOMETHING!
If not, then get used to hearing our complaints EVERY time this issue raises it's head again and continue in the death spiral of getting new folks only to replace those who aren't returning every year.
@George: The 'letter' was last seen by Ruth Hansen. It was meant as a final goodbye to explain why the Star Trek groups (Specifically the now six clubs of the Seventh Fleet) will not be back. The reason it is usually referred to is the clubs went to the effort to explain and were ignored and their complaints lost in the shuffle. Save a few misguided few who cannot give up hope, that was to be the end of the matter. Whether the letter has been lost to time and never sees the light of day, the pain, the hurt and the hope that went into it are being summed up in comments that you are reading today.
-Rex Rouviere
All of you are wonderful for feeling free to express yourselves openly. I may not agree with each and every point made, but I'm not supposed to. Only people with no self-respect or liars will completely agree with everything you say. Real people who want a real discussion will disagree on something. This is what has needed to happen for a long time, a conversation... a discussion of differences of opinion.
ReplyDeleteThis discussion is not an attack on any one person or group of persons. You can be frustrated with or even hate specific actions or ideas of a person without hating that person. If I speak up my disagreement with you, I have enough respect for you to think that you can handle my disagreement like a grown up.
1. LTUE is the literary and academic con. Let's celebrate the writer's craft and present papers there. Let's not let CONduit continue to be morphed into LTUE II. CONduit as Dave Powell envisioned was the general fandom con. He wanted CONduit to be for the fans. Key here is the fans... not the pros. Pros are great, but they are the entertainment. The every fan is the audience.
2. MountainCon did not fail through lack of support. It failed due to a confluence of bad decisions. Fans who haven't been to CONduit in years, showed up at MountainCon in numbers. Should what these fans are looking for be provided at another local convention, they would gladly show up and participate.
3. No one person, family or group is G-d's gift to fandom. Nor is one person, family or group the devil. We are all awesome and we all suck, period.
4. Fen are rather known for not have a huge amount of social grace, while at the same time having an inordinate amount of pride. Rather than saying "I'm sorry" by inviting people back or other subtle means, just say "I'm sorry."
Here's mine: I am very sorry if I accidentally offended anyone in the fan community. Unless I specifically pulled you, as an individual, aside and the "F" word was involved, it was not intentional. Compared to the average Utah fan, I can be rather aggressive, abrasive and blunt.
I'm not sure how valuable my input is, as I haven't ever attended CONduit but I submitted artwork to last year's coloring book and Debbie Lords was cool enough to keep inviting me to planning meetings since then.
ReplyDeleteI was considering attending this year but looking over the panel list, it was return of LTUE. I'd met most of the guests and sat on a lot of the panels. There were certainly some additional events beyond what was at the Symposium but there wasn't enough of a difference to make it a priority for me. I didn't realize there was an overlap between the organization leadership of the two events.
SF and Fantasy literature should definitely be a part of CONduit but only a part, in my opinion. Anime, all manner of gaming, comics, and TV and Movie fandom should be in the forefront if you want to draw in the crowds.
It's funny because last year was the first year I'd heard of CONduit and I've been a geek in this state for 30 years now. There's something wrong with that.
"Compared to the average Utah fan, I can be rather aggressive, abrasive and blunt."
ReplyDeleteI still remember the time you threatened to bean Martin with an overstuffed sofa for punning. ^_^
I want to echo what you said. I know I'm plenty capable of putting my foot in my mouth, but if I've ever hurt someone's feelings, it wasn't intentional.
I want to say that no one would have intentionally said something hurtful, but people have bad days and low blood sugar and sometimes personalities simply rub each other wrong. What to do about that: I don't know. But I do not believe that one person's bad behavior should be taken to reflect on the entire group they're associated with. To me that seems like a very bad idea.
Well... now even I have to admit that there may yet be hope. Can I take these posts as offers to listen and possibly work together to settle some differences?
ReplyDeleteI know that I have offended many. Taking a stand and being uncomprosing in it has a tendency to do so. My stand is that it doesn't have to be this way.
We fans can and want to work together. We have much common ground. Obviously we have similar interests.
Mountaincon was created to show that media cons can happen and the fans in Utah supported it. Unfortunately all it takes is one rotten apple to spoil the barrel.
That doesn't have to happen here. I am concerned that this air of contrition won't survive the coming CONcom meeting or be shared by a majority of the CONcom.
That said, here is hoping. Ideas without action are only dreams. Let's hope these discussions are more than dreams.
-Rex Rouviere
I am a professional writer and an aspiring writer of fiction and even I find CONduit a bore these days--so much so that I don't go anymore. The CONduit of old had a much more diverse focus. Movie and TV discussions, Buffy musical sing-a-longs, medieval combat (of sorts), etc.
ReplyDeleteAnd I will add my voice on this page as well to those who recognize that the con stopped being any fun at all when the clubs pulled out. With them went the innovation, diversity and energy that made CONduit a blast--that in fact made it worth it to me to pay for a hotel room for three days, despite the fact that I lived no more than 20 minutes away at the time, simply because I didn't want to miss a minute of the fun.
ReplyDeleteI mean no offense, and I understand that I am on the outside looking in. I also could not begin to place blame for what went down so many years ago. I have heard rumors from all sides for years since that time, and from those I conclude what I always do when it comes to He Said, She Said: there is his story, there is hers and there is the truth. So I may not be able to pinpoint causal factors, but I can provide you with the effect: the Con stopped being fun for so very many of us when the clubs stopped providing their input and showing up to the event. Of all the friends I have who used to attend CONduit, only one does so any longer--because he is a filker. The rest of us are utterly disillusioned.
ReplyDelete